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Fun Legal Hypo (Cancelled Taxi Ride) - From TALMUD LAW Class

moishe calls shlomo (who runs a taxi service) and asks shlom...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/12/18
...
toplawschool
  02/12/18
Nothing unless they had agreed to a policy of canceling with...
wait till biggus dickus hears of this
  02/12/18
so you're saying that the default rule is either party can b...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/12/18
Yeah. If you want some consideration, have a break fee or ca...
wait till biggus dickus hears of this
  02/12/18
since when do you need a liquidated damages provision to get...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/12/18
If it's important enough to either party then they would hav...
wait till biggus dickus hears of this
  02/12/18
talking american law, a written agreement is almost never ne...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/12/18
Absent an agreed upon policy, such personal arrangements are...
wait till biggus dickus hears of this
  02/12/18
should they be understood as such? i'd disagree that they ev...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/12/18
Since when do you need consideration when there's been a bar...
toplawschool
  02/12/18
Isn't that what I'm saying idk I'm neither a jew nor a lawfa...
wait till biggus dickus hears of this
  02/12/18
I think I have this one. Not even an executory contract. Moi...
Tjhooker
  02/12/18
"Moishe’s bro would have been on the hook for the ride&...
~~(>' ' )>
  02/12/18
and how would you measure his lost profit?
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/12/18
Mileage costs, tolls, etc. Not hard.
~~(>' ' )>
  02/12/18
It’s not executory, the hypo says nothing about the brother ...
Tjhooker
  02/12/18
Why do you think that matters?
~~(>' ' )>
  02/12/18
Promise was illusory, as I previously stated. You can’t ke...
Tjhooker
  02/13/18
You think a promise is illusory if the contract is not execu...
~~(>' ' )>
  02/13/18
He owes him 40 dollars.
Chaucer
  02/12/18
Less the cost of performing. S gets his profit from M.
~~(>' ' )>
  02/12/18
he owes him nothing. the deal was for a ride to the airport,...
MoreDoughHi
  02/12/18
He owes him 40 dollars I think. Maybe not contractually, but...
Chaucer
  02/12/18
why would he believe the other guy got an offer of $40 or mo...
MoreDoughHi
  02/12/18
Moishe owes Shlomo $40, or whatever the cancellation penalty...
Refunkulus
  02/12/18
why $40 tho?
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/13/18
It was agreed upon
Refunkulus
  02/14/18
RULING: nobody got it perfectly but facemo was closest. the ...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/14/18
I just feel like he owes him $40.
Chaucer
  02/14/18
there's no way it's $40. that's a windfall. why is the drive...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/14/18
This is a fair and just ruling.
Judas Jones
  02/14/18
$15-30 is fair - I suggested whatever the Cancellation Fee w...
Refunkulus
  02/14/18
i actually argued that the custom is likely that there is no...
staceyredneck@gmail.com
  02/14/18


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Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 4:50 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

moishe calls shlomo (who runs a taxi service) and asks shlomo to pick up moishe's brother at the airport at 7am the next day. shlomo agrees to do it for $40.

within minutes of handing up, shlomo gets a call from dudi asking him to take him to the city at 7am. shlomo had to turn it down.

later that evening, moishe called shlomo to cancel. moishe said that a neighbor is going to be at the airport to pick his son up at 7am, and can pick up his brother from the same flight.

shlomo was maf, and then called didi back to see if he still needed the ride. dudi said he made alternative plans.

shlomo didnt end up getting another booking for that time.

what, if anything, does moishe owe shlomo?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35386517)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 4:51 PM
Author: toplawschool (I might don't)



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35386521)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 4:54 PM
Author: wait till biggus dickus hears of this

Nothing unless they had agreed to a policy of canceling within x hours notice

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35386542)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 4:55 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

so you're saying that the default rule is either party can bail from a contract w/o a specifically discussed cancellation policy?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35386556)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 5:55 PM
Author: wait till biggus dickus hears of this

Yeah. If you want some consideration, have a break fee or cancellation policy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387071)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 5:56 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

since when do you need a liquidated damages provision to get damages?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387080)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:00 PM
Author: wait till biggus dickus hears of this

If it's important enough to either party then they would have a written agreement with penalties for backing out. Those penalties are common for just that reason. Shlomo fucked up

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387107)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:03 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

talking american law, a written agreement is almost never needed (i.e., outside the statute of fraudlies). how could you possibly say that a contract is unenforceable bc the parties would have put it in writing if they cared enough?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387120)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:07 PM
Author: wait till biggus dickus hears of this

Absent an agreed upon policy, such personal arrangements are understood to be cancelable and changeable without penalty

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387138)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:11 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

should they be understood as such? i'd disagree that they even are understood as such.

growing up, we never had any kind of contract or policy with our tennis coaches, but it was understood that if we bailed on them at the last minute because we were sick, my parents would have to pay them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387175)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 5:58 PM
Author: toplawschool (I might don't)

Since when do you need consideration when there's been a bargained for exchange?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387096)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:04 PM
Author: wait till biggus dickus hears of this

Isn't that what I'm saying idk I'm neither a jew nor a lawfag.

If Shlomo said "ok I'll drive you but since it's within 24 hours I'm gonna need to charge you the full fare in advance, nonrefundable if you cancel" and Moeisha agreed then that would be the deal. No cancellation penalty = Moeisha don't owe SHIT

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387126)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 5:51 PM
Author: Tjhooker

I think I have this one. Not even an executory contract. Moishe’s bro would have been on the hook for the ride, no consideration, illusory promises all around. Similarly, if Schlomo failed to appear at the airport, Moishe and his bro would have had no remedy against Schlomo.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387038)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:06 PM
Author: ~~(>' ' )>

"Moishe’s bro would have been on the hook for the ride"

Wrong analysis. M and S can agree to contact for the benefit of B. And an exchange of promises is consideration.

Measure of damages is S's lost profit for the airport ride, not the $40 revenue.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387134)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:12 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

and how would you measure his lost profit?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387180)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:22 PM
Author: ~~(>' ' )>

Mileage costs, tolls, etc. Not hard.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387248)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:13 PM
Author: Tjhooker

It’s not executory, the hypo says nothing about the brother asking M to arrange a paid ride from the airport.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387186)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:20 PM
Author: ~~(>' ' )>

Why do you think that matters?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387235)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 13th, 2018 1:21 PM
Author: Tjhooker

Promise was illusory, as I previously stated.

You can’t keep skipping to damages without liability and even if you skipped to damages, Schlomo should still have gotten off his ass and picked up someone else from the airport.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35393530)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 13th, 2018 1:22 PM
Author: ~~(>' ' )>

You think a promise is illusory if the contract is not executory? That's not the law. If you want to keep talking about executory contracts or the lack thereof, you're going to need to be clearer, because I can't make any sense of your argument.

And whether S could have found another fare isn't a contract formation issue. That's a mitigation of damages defense.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35393536)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:04 PM
Author: Chaucer

He owes him 40 dollars.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387124)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:07 PM
Author: ~~(>' ' )>

Less the cost of performing.

S gets his profit from M.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387144)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:08 PM
Author: MoreDoughHi

he owes him nothing. the deal was for a ride to the airport, not to be on standby for the night.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387149)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:13 PM
Author: Chaucer

He owes him 40 dollars I think. Maybe not contractually, but to just be a good guy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387184)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 6:14 PM
Author: MoreDoughHi

why would he believe the other guy got an offer of $40 or more? what if dudi got an offer for a supermodel 3-way, does he owe him 2 hookers now?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35387191)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 12th, 2018 10:16 PM
Author: Refunkulus (never count out a MUSCLE NUT)

Moishe owes Shlomo $40, or whatever the cancellation penalty fee alternative is if there is one.

Shlomo, by virtue of having a scheduling process for his cab company, is protected by Deut 24:15. His time was hired upon when Moishe asked him to schedule a ride.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35389056)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 13th, 2018 12:45 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

why $40 tho?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35393247)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 14th, 2018 5:25 PM
Author: Refunkulus (never count out a MUSCLE NUT)

It was agreed upon

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35403661)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 14th, 2018 2:07 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

RULING: nobody got it perfectly but facemo was closest. the CR is that the damages are shlomo's lost profits LESS a the reasonable value of him not having to do the work.

facemo is right that there's no way he's entitled to the full $40 -- that would render him a huge surplus. you need to deduct for gas/tolls and wear & tear.

and even then, he's not entitled to the full amount of the lost profits because he got the morning off, and the talmud says that a jew's labor over his leisure is compensable. (he does have a duty to mitigate, and he clearly did attempt to mitigate by calling didi back.)

it's tricky and case specific to calculate what having the time off is worth, but rabbinic courts generally use something around 50% as a good benchmark.

so, if the fare is $40 and the lost profit is less $10 in gas etc, for $30.... then moishe probably owes shlomo around $15 not $30 because shlomo didnt have to do the work.

one may argue that this is absurd, because shlomo needs the $30 to pay his bills etc and he'd rather have done the job for $30 than do nothing and collect $15. but the response is that there's always a price someone's willing to accept to not to have to do work. it might not be $15. maybe it's $25? but there's certainly a point where any taxi driver would rather sit on his ass and make say $29 than do work for $30.

and yes, the contract is fully enforceable with consideration. the subthreads saying it's not are retarded.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35402051)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 14th, 2018 3:41 PM
Author: Chaucer

I just feel like he owes him $40.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35402877)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 14th, 2018 3:42 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

there's no way it's $40. that's a windfall. why is the driver entitled to a windfall?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35402883)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 14th, 2018 5:27 PM
Author: Judas Jones

This is a fair and just ruling.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35403672)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 14th, 2018 5:29 PM
Author: Refunkulus (never count out a MUSCLE NUT)

$15-30 is fair - I suggested whatever the Cancellation Fee was (either by custom or specified) as being the ideal damage amount

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35403688)



Reply Favorite

Date: February 14th, 2018 6:01 PM
Author: staceyredneck@gmail.com (*)

i actually argued that the custom is likely that there is no cancellation fee. taxi services are in the business of people cancelling at the last minute -- flights get delayed, cancelled, etc. it's the nature of the assignment.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3891045&forum_id=2#35403965)